I wish manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards would pay more attention to pointing devices. After all, with modern UIs we have to use the pointer. Having a hand jump to a mouse all the time is, at least, distracting.
Another factor is skeletal symmetry. Reaching for a mouse changes the natural balance of posture. I'm not a doctor, but it cannot be healthy over decades. That's why after many years I'm now using the pointing device with my non-dominant hand most of the time. My dominant hand only takes the mouse when I have to do precise or graphic work. This approach makes my back, neck and shoulders feel better.
And the last major gripe I have with most of ergonomic keyboards is how they misunderstand tactile feedback. They try to make all keys feel the same. Glove80 takes it to the limit with its uniform and flat key shapes and identical switches. I don't think this is helpful. Notice how F and J on most keyboards have bumps. Every key should have a bump, a unique shape, a unique surface texture. I want to subconsciously know I hit the right key.
Reading reviews of this type of keyboard is really interesting to me because their use is such a subjective experience. I have found that the glove80 has far and away the most comfortable thumb cluster for my hands as well as the most comfortable positioning for my pinkies.
I couldn’t make the corne variants work because tucking my thumbs hurt. The ergodox is too big. Even a keyboard like the ZSA Voyager just doesn’t fit me right. However, the glove80, running a 40 key layout that I’ve come up with after doing a fair amount of heat mapping my own keystrokes, gets rid of all my hand and wrist discomfort. My only complaint is what a hassle it is to haul around.
The only “wisdom” (hard earned) I would pass along is:
- Make a heat map of your keyboard over a few days to see what keys you need.
- tweak your layout to make it easy and comfortable to get to the keys and key combos you use.
I kind of regret my glove80 purchase after getting on the ortholinear ergo bandwagon to replace a microsoft sculpt. It's solidly built, happy to support and I'm using it to type this currently as a sunk cost fallacy... but similar concerns re: the inner thumb clusters being difficult to reach without repositioning palms. I've mapped them as: alt and space on the inner left and alt+space (power toys search) and layer on the inner right with another space on the right closer to my thumb. That's the biggest game changer vs. another keyboard: having backspace accessible with the left thumb and space with the right thumb is amazing. I also cannot reach the bottom outer 2/3 buttons with my pinkies and have 'medium' glove hands. Also for the cost, I was disappointed that one can't individually control/map the RGB LEDs so what is the bloody point of having them.
thanks! I'm not convinced I really care about the concavity - I got the Glove80 because it was cheaper for wireless and ZMK seemed like a safer bet than the Dygma custom layout engine. You're happy with that side of things?
I only have the wireless version. The keyboard management software Dygma makes is spectacular, I was quite pleased. It's quite a step up from the janky web editor Moergo provides, requiring downloading a file and then doing a keyboard re-flashing dance.
> I analysed a full day of my keystrokes with xkbcat, which was very useful: my most frequently pressed keys are not what I would have guessed! For example, I discovered that I type ‘>’ far more often than ‘<’6.
Excellent approach, though rarely used in layout design, at most you'd get frequency distribution of typed text instead of pressed keys
> Both hands need access to each of these modifiers, because using a modifier and typing a key with the same hand often involves painful contortions.
While home row mods is a better solution, another alternative is "sticky" mods that would remove the need to hold, so you can use the same hand without pain
> On a normal keyboard, if I press ‘f’ then ‘g’ I can roll from one to the other and press ‘g’ while ‘f’ still hasn’t been released – ‘fg’ will be sent to the computer. With home row mods, this ends up sending ‘G’.
This might be config issue. With a roll you release F before G (your fingers roll off the first key before rolling off the second), so this should type regular FG in properly configured home row mods instead of just capitalized G.
> The practical effect of this is that ‘f’ isn’t sent to the computer as soon as you press down, but only when you release the key.
Are there implementations that send F immediately, but send backspace to delete F if you hold?
I transitioned from a "normal" keyboard to a Glove80 last year. I immediately didn't like using the standard layout, so I switched to Colemak-DH which I've found pretty comfortable.
The thumb clusters are definitely a pain, I find myself only really using the 3 closest buttons one each side. Even then, the closest button on the upper row requires a stretch that gets uncomfortable after a while. It hasn't been bad enough for me to consider trying other keyboards though--the prices are too high for me to feel comfortable buying something I might not like.
To anyone that switches to a split keyboard, I strongly recommend also getting a trackball mouse (I use a Ploopy Adept). It lets you center the keyboard in front of you without needing to stretch too far while manipulating the mouse.
I've usually seen "thumb clusters" used for those style of key layouts, rather than thumb pads.
I've been using some variant of the Kinesis Advantage line for over 10 years - currently the Advantage360, their split board. I used an ergodox for a few years before that.
The Advantages are all 3d curved layouts with thumb clusters like the Maltron, and I haven't had RSI issues since making the move. The 360pro runs ZMK for firmware customization, and the stands do support different tenting angles.
Worth a try if you're looking for a more direct alternative to the Maltron.
While it's missing the concavity of either the Glove80 or the Maltron, I've been so happy with the Keyboardio's thumb cluster (and palm keys) that I'm more than willing to overlook that regression. The Keyboardio's also got a very nice build, and the wood looks great.
You reference Kinesis in the article so I assume you've seen the Kinesis Advantage 360? I've been a happy Kinseis Advantage user for two decades, and the 360 is pretty much perfect. It has dedicated keys for activating layers, you can remap and configure on a website using web serial, and it is extremely premium looking/feeling. And of course it's very comfortable without the thumb key problem discussed in this article.
The Kinesis Advantage literally saved my career. I have lived in fear for a long time that the company would go out of business. So every chance I can justify I send them another $400 for their latest keyboard so I help keep them in business and increase my stockpile.
I use a Lily58 split/lightly bowled keyboard and it has been a big improvement in many regards. The thumb cluster is a much different approach to the Glove or Maltron, and I think it would benefit people with shorter thumb reach but might feel cramped for those with more mighty talons.
I do bouldering, and I have broken two of my fingers over the years in cycling accidents, and both are ultimately inconsequential compared using/abusing a bad keyboard. If you are thinking about trying a new keyboard design, and you use a keyboard for at least a few hours a day, it will be money well spent.
Have you tried the moonlander, or similar style thumb pads with articulated or more exaggerated angle? Seems to me that the thumb action should be at about 90 degrees to the finger action. I have a fancy keyboard to help with wrist issues, and I think thumb issues will arise next.
I have used splits for a long time. An improvement I swear by for thumb clusters is making the keys farther from me taller. I have no idea how I'd hit them without that. My keyboard is a Keebio Iris [0]. The thumb keys closest to me have relatively low-profile DSA key caps. The keys above them are SA (edit: row 3). I think this is a decent avenue for keyboard customizers to explore to make their thumbs have a better time reaching up a row.
The Glove uses low profile switches though, so I have no idea if different height caps are even possible with those.
profiled keycaps are absolutely possible but I haven't seen any out there. someone wanting that would probably have to 3D print their own, or at least some kind of spacer
Another factor is skeletal symmetry. Reaching for a mouse changes the natural balance of posture. I'm not a doctor, but it cannot be healthy over decades. That's why after many years I'm now using the pointing device with my non-dominant hand most of the time. My dominant hand only takes the mouse when I have to do precise or graphic work. This approach makes my back, neck and shoulders feel better.
And the last major gripe I have with most of ergonomic keyboards is how they misunderstand tactile feedback. They try to make all keys feel the same. Glove80 takes it to the limit with its uniform and flat key shapes and identical switches. I don't think this is helpful. Notice how F and J on most keyboards have bumps. Every key should have a bump, a unique shape, a unique surface texture. I want to subconsciously know I hit the right key.
I couldn’t make the corne variants work because tucking my thumbs hurt. The ergodox is too big. Even a keyboard like the ZSA Voyager just doesn’t fit me right. However, the glove80, running a 40 key layout that I’ve come up with after doing a fair amount of heat mapping my own keystrokes, gets rid of all my hand and wrist discomfort. My only complaint is what a hassle it is to haul around.
The only “wisdom” (hard earned) I would pass along is:
- Make a heat map of your keyboard over a few days to see what keys you need.
- tweak your layout to make it easy and comfortable to get to the keys and key combos you use.
- remember you do NOT have to use every key!
I like everything about it except for the thumb cluster. it is, amazingly, worse than the Ergodox EZ.
I wish the author would spring for a wireless Dygma Defy and tell us how that thumb cluster compares :)
Excellent approach, though rarely used in layout design, at most you'd get frequency distribution of typed text instead of pressed keys
> Both hands need access to each of these modifiers, because using a modifier and typing a key with the same hand often involves painful contortions.
While home row mods is a better solution, another alternative is "sticky" mods that would remove the need to hold, so you can use the same hand without pain
> On a normal keyboard, if I press ‘f’ then ‘g’ I can roll from one to the other and press ‘g’ while ‘f’ still hasn’t been released – ‘fg’ will be sent to the computer. With home row mods, this ends up sending ‘G’.
This might be config issue. With a roll you release F before G (your fingers roll off the first key before rolling off the second), so this should type regular FG in properly configured home row mods instead of just capitalized G.
> The practical effect of this is that ‘f’ isn’t sent to the computer as soon as you press down, but only when you release the key.
Are there implementations that send F immediately, but send backspace to delete F if you hold?
The thumb clusters are definitely a pain, I find myself only really using the 3 closest buttons one each side. Even then, the closest button on the upper row requires a stretch that gets uncomfortable after a while. It hasn't been bad enough for me to consider trying other keyboards though--the prices are too high for me to feel comfortable buying something I might not like.
To anyone that switches to a split keyboard, I strongly recommend also getting a trackball mouse (I use a Ploopy Adept). It lets you center the keyboard in front of you without needing to stretch too far while manipulating the mouse.
I've been using some variant of the Kinesis Advantage line for over 10 years - currently the Advantage360, their split board. I used an ergodox for a few years before that.
The Advantages are all 3d curved layouts with thumb clusters like the Maltron, and I haven't had RSI issues since making the move. The 360pro runs ZMK for firmware customization, and the stands do support different tenting angles.
Worth a try if you're looking for a more direct alternative to the Maltron.
I do bouldering, and I have broken two of my fingers over the years in cycling accidents, and both are ultimately inconsequential compared using/abusing a bad keyboard. If you are thinking about trying a new keyboard design, and you use a keyboard for at least a few hours a day, it will be money well spent.
Edit: looks like the keyboardio someone else mentioned gets it right.
What about Maltron in Colemack?
https://colemak.com/
Or the Dactyl Manuform?
https://nathanfriend.com/2023/06/26/i-built-a-weird-keyboard...
Or Keyzen:
https://store.azeron.eu/azeron-keypads#keypad=keyzen
I just want an MC Escher keyboard, so I can type upside down and sideways.
Apart from that it's a great keyboard.
The Glove uses low profile switches though, so I have no idea if different height caps are even possible with those.
[0] https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard